UDreamOfJanie

Dream a Little Dream of Me.

The Trial of Lucifer

XV – The Devil, by malik williams @ FlickrThis might prove an interesting discussion, but it requires a complete reading of The Lilith Obsession for proper context.

I’ve been surfing around, looking for a place where my erotica might be a better fit than the Sugasm.  Again, let me reiterate:  I love the Sugasm.  I just don’t think I’m offering what Sugasmers are looking to read.

I want to get my content into the browsers of people who are looking for my kind of content, rather than have a bajillion page views by people who are disappointed by what they find here.

I happened into the Erotica Readers and Writers Association website, where there is a newsletter, forum, email discussion list, resources, blah blah blah.  I’m grooving to it so far.

There’s also a call for submissions there, and one of the things they rule out in submitted erotica is rape (probably quite sensibly to avoid the legal hassles).  Now, I’ve not gotten to the point where I’m seriously considering a submission yet, but it brings to mind a series of questions about the sexual interaction between the two characters in my story, and I don’t think the answers are as clear-cut as they might at first appear.

Now, the questions, below the fold to conceal any spoilers from those who’ve not read The Lilith Obsession yet.:

Did Lucifer rape Lilith in The Lilith Obession?

Did he think he did?

Did she think he did?

Did YOU think he did?

Did your opinion change when you got to the end?  If so, what made you change your mind?

What part did consent play in that, and does the fact that the real consent was not obvious to Lucifer make any difference?

Should we put Lucifer on trial, and let you, the jury, decide?  I think we just did.  Let’s hear opening arguments.

From whence came the art:

That image is titled 303/365: XV – The Devil, by malik williams, and is licensed by the artist under the Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial 2.0 license.

Filed under: Erotica, Literature, Literature and Literotica, Romance, Sex, , ,

203 Responses

  1. Beth says:

    No.

    But I have chickens to feed, a child to soothe and coffee to make so I’ll have to reread later.

  2. I’ve been re-reading and I think there is no way to call it consensual in the beginning. That it turns consensual by the end doesn’t change that, does it?

    So are there degrees of non-consensual before you get to rape? The situation in part 2 seems pretty clearly to be a situation of force.

    Hmm. I’m wondering about the rationale behind their restriction, actually.

  3. JanieBelle says:

    Beth,

    Stroke the chicken, feed the child, and we’ll wait for your more thorough thoughts.

    Molly,

    But what about the fact that Lilith had designs on Lucifer since back in the garden, and the idea that she had set him up from the beginning to do exactly what he did?

    I’m thinking the rationale is as much to avoid a legal pain in the butt as it is any moral qualms about rape fantasies, but I can’t really speak for them. I don’t see a place where they lay out a justification for their restrictions, just the restrictions themselves.

  4. Rystefn says:

    Absolutely he did. He believed that’s what he was doing (regardless of how certain he may have been that she’d come to like it), so that’s what he was doing.Sure, she baited him into it, but if he wasn’t a rapist, it wouldn’t have worked, would it?

    As far as I’m concerned, the key is always intent. As hard as that may be to prove in a real court, in this case, we get a pretty clear view of what’s going in Lucifer’s head.

    That’s kind of what I was talking about when I said I didn’t like him in this story.

  5. JanieBelle says:

    Oh, no question about intent at all.

    But did he succeed?

  6. JanieBelle says:

    And yeah, he was a jerk, but that of course was on purpose.

  7. Diana says:

    I agree with what Rystefin said. But here’s my thoughts.

    Did he think he did?
    Yes and no, that was his whole game but he thought/felt she liked what he was doing therefore it wasn’t ‘really’ rape in his eyes, although he was performing the acts of a rapist.

    Did she think he did?
    The writer makes you think she thinks that in the beginning. But then you get the sense of “Ha, ha I played you this whole time.”
    But I’m sure if she could have gotten what she wanted another way, she wouldn’t have sex with him. So again, maybe she did think it was because she felt that was the only way to get what she wanted.

    Did YOU think he did?
    Yes, he beat her into submission, it doesn’t matter that she ‘complied’ because she was complying out of fear of how much more she could handle. In the end I did see why she why but it still occurred in a rape manner.

    Did your opinion change when you got to the end? If so, what made you change your mind?
    A little but it still reads as a rape whether she played into or not.

    What part did consent play in that, and does the fact that the real consent was not obvious to Lucifer make any difference?
    Again yes, because it reads as a rape scene.

    I hope this all makes sense, it made more sense in my head before I started writing it out.

  8. JanieBelle says:

    I get what you’re saying totally, Diana.

    And if I may play Devil’s Advocate quite literally here, let me add this to the discussion…

    The final scene more than strongly hints at Lilith’s masochism, with the orgasm while self-branding.

    Perhaps she wanted him to take her exactly like he did, living out her own rape fantasy as she manipulated him into thinking he was manipulating her.

  9. If I were arguing this from a real life angle I would never allow a woman’s prior consent to imply consent in a given moment. Wives can be raped even though they’ve consented in the past. Did she set this up from the beginning? Yes, but does that mean she was consenting in that moment? We can’t completely get inside her head and know that, can we? (I mean you can, JanieBelle, but the rest of us can’t.) Her masochism is also in some ways beside the point. Masochists can still revoke consent in any given moment. That’s why people have safe words, right? And there is a big difference between her getting off to the branding (which she was administering herself) and wanting to be brutalized by someone else in a specific moment.

    You were in her head JanieBelle. Tell us the answer. Was she consenting in that moment even though she appeared not to be?

    Does this make anyone else suspicious of eye witness accounts as testimony, by the way? We all ‘watched’ the same scene and we see different things, especially with the benefit of hindsight granted by having gotten to the end of the story. No wonder juries are told to ignore media accounts of the cases they are working on ;)

    xoxo
    Molly

  10. JanieBelle says:

    You were in her head JanieBelle. Tell us the answer. Was she consenting in that moment even though she appeared not to be?

    I do in fact know the answer to this question, and knew it at the time of writing.

    I thought about withholding that information, but let’s make this a bit more interesting…

    Yes, she was consenting in the moment. Remember the smile at the top of the train stair? (End of Part the Second)

    (And yes, this does make me stop and think about eyewitness testimony and media accounts of actual cases.)

    xoxoxo,
    JanieBelle

  11. I remember that hint of a smile very well. I’ve reread Part the Second several times today :) I don’t find it convincing enough evidence as a witness, but I absolutely believe that you wrote it to convey her consent.

    So, I say submit the story. You didn’t write a rape. You wrote something that most witnesses would perceive as a rape. Does it cost you anything to submit? Do you lose anything if they reject it based on their own perception?

    And I would be curious to know if they would answer an inquiry about their restriction, and to know how they make distinctions about whether a scene represents a rape or not.

  12. Diana says:

    Yeah, what Molly said too!

    I did notice that piece of info, but my own beliefs/thoughts/realty (? can’t think of the word ?) couldn’t believe that she really ‘wanted’ that or be treated that way. So I just dismissed it and kinda chalked it up to a smile of glad I’m not being beaten right now. Like a relief smile. (Though I did visualize a smirk so who knows what I think. I think I just confused myself.)

  13. Diana says:

    Okay, I was agreeing to what Molly said the first time. But by the time I was done writing, she piped in again. But I do agree this second time. The worst that can happen is that they reject it, right?

  14. JanieBelle says:

    I’m just happy you’ve been re-reading it, Molly.

    I may submit it after all, and make that very inquiry with a link to this thread. You’re right in that the worst thing that can happen is that they say, “no”.

    So here we are at the crux of the matter.

    From his perspective, she gave verbal consent. He would not call it rape.

    From outside perspective, that consent was given only under extreme duress. An outsider would call that rape.

    From her perspective, it was exactly what she intended to happen. She would not call it rape.

    But… He didn’t know her intentions. His intent was to rape, whether he would agree with calling it that or not.

  15. JanieBelle says:

    And Diana, you chimed in while I was writing. It’s getting quick here…

  16. Stephanie Z says:

    I find it kind of interesting that this discussion is in purely human terms. One of the things that made the story work for me is that the characters are not all human. Lucifer is (in the mythos of the story) what he was made to be. In many ways, it can be argued that he alone of the three players is without free will.

    Lilith withheld consent in the moment in order to further her own goals, but did she really not consent? She couldn’t have won her bet without being an apparent conquest. Lucifer required it, by his nature, to stay interested long enough to ask three times. He could have stalled the bet and walked away from it by never asking the third time. In fact, she withheld information (about her bet) that he would have required in order to be fully able to consent himself.

    So was it rape? Yes and no. And of whom? And how much responsibility does the omniscient guy, the one who knew what was going on all around, bear?

    Just a couple more questions to throw into the mix. :)

  17. JanieBelle says:

    And yet another twist in the trial transcripts!

    Excellent, Steph!

  18. JanieBelle says:

    So. Is it possible that Lucifer in fact may be the true victim here, or is Stephanie bordering dangerously close to blaming the victim?

  19. You know, it never even occurred to me to ask whether the standards for evaluating a rape claim were different when mythic figures were on the stand :)

    Could the court reporter please read back the instructions to the jury?

    xoxo
    Molly

  20. Rystefn says:

    You know, you can make certain cases for nonhuman exceptions – and I’ve been the first to do so in the past… However, in this tale, we follow the mind of Lucifer for the most part, and none of it comes off as inhuman to me. Vile, evil, thoroughly corrupt, sure, but nothing inhuman at all. He might not have called it rape, but what the Hell does that have to do with anything? That’s like saying “I didn’t rob anyone, that person just gave me her purse – what does it matter if I pointed a gun at her and kicked her in the neck once or twice?”

    Again, intent is the key so far as I’m concerned, and he without doubt intended to take her against her will. If that’s not rape, I don’t know what is.

    Also, eyewitness testimony is the least reliable kind of evidence. In a world based on reality, “I saw it,” with nothing else backing it up should really carry almost no weight. How many people have been raped by space aliens?

    Also, as an extreme masochist, I can tell you that there’s a distinct line between rape and having it rough and violent. That line is consent.

  21. JanieBelle says:

    That line is consent.

    …which she gave.

  22. Rystefn says:

    Under duress. Doesn’t count.

    Regardless of what she actually was going for, what he doesn’t know doesn’t enter here. As far as Lucifer is concerned, he forced her.

  23. Stephanie Z says:

    Hmm. The question of Lucifer’s free will and the question of whether Lilith’s machinations offset Lucifer’s intentions at all were meant to be somewhat separate, although I can certainly see why it might not be read that way. For that matter, does the fact that Lilith freed all the damned souls offset what she did to Lucifer?

  24. Rystefn says:

    Ah, yes.. The question of free will is an interesting one. Tradition would seem to state that angels have little in the way of free, however as first among angels, Lucifer would have had more than most, perhaps. As a rebel, one would think he surely MUST have free will, how else could he have turned against his master? However, this Yahweh character has never exactly been the nicest of fellows (sacrificed his own son to himself to appease himself)… If it turns out that Lucifer in fact lacked all free will, he is as blameless as a hammer, and it was Yahweh who is the rapist, and is in fact guilty of any crimes committed through his tool.

    In this story, it seems that Lucifer has free will, but that could quite easily be an illusion, couldn’t it? The small appearances of the Divine do paint him as rather a dick, and I certainly wouldn’t put it past such a person to spend eternity playing chess against himself, even if the pawns must suffer terribly.

  25. JanieBelle says:

    Under duress. Doesn’t count.

    No sir. She arranged the whole thing.

    He only thought her consent was under duress.

  26. JanieBelle says:

    Throwing the concept of free will and the issue of whether mythological characters play by the same rules as us mere mortals sure makes things interesting, though.

  27. JanieBelle says:

    Could the court reporter please read back the instructions to the jury?

    I’m not sure they were entered into evidence to begin with, Molly.

  28. Rystefn says:

    He only thought it was under duress? I’ll grant you that, but again, since I stand by the statement that it was his intent that counts, it changes nothing.

    However much you might manipulate someone into taking your purse, if they do it by sticking a gun in your face, it’s still robbery.

    Once again: “Regardless of what she actually was going for, what he doesn’t know doesn’t enter here. As far as Lucifer is concerned, he forced her.”

  29. JanieBelle says:

    And you think that would stand up in court if she took the stand and answered honestly?

  30. Rystefn says:

    Not remotely.

  31. Stephanie Z says:

    But it doesn’t make it any less true.

  32. JanieBelle says:

    Ah, but we’re using a jury metaphor, so legal implication is everything.

  33. Stephanie Z says:

    We are? Who says I play by the rules? I’m already arguing both sides.

  34. JanieBelle says:

    hehe.

    Care to read the OP and its title again, dear Stephanie?

  35. Stephanie Z says:

    I did before I made the comment. “We” is italicized for emphasis, but it really doesn’t show. [sigh] So much for being a rebel.

  36. JanieBelle says:

    I saw it. I was just pinching your butt.

  37. Rystefn says:

    Yeah, well, since when have I ever let a little thing like the original intent of a conversation influence my points in any way except when it served my purpose of riling up dissent?

    Come now, you’re not that new to how I operate, are you?

  38. JanieBelle says:

    Exactly what I love about you.
    ;)

  39. Rystefn says:

    LoL… Fair enough.

  40. JanieBelle says:

    So what about Steph’s point concerning different rules in the Courts of the Gods?

    Surely Lucifer wouldn’t be held to a different standard than Yahweh or Zeus, both of whom are notorious for what we mere mortals would define as rape.

  41. Rystefn says:

    Surely, Lucifer would be held to different standard. The Morning Star isn’t divine. He’s merely angelic. What precisely that standard would be would depend wholly on the deity seated above him. In this case, the inscrutable and clearly insane God of the Deserts. There is absolutely no way to predict how that would play out.

    Had he been serving under the Greek gods, he might very well have received a stern reprimand for just turning into a white bull to get her all horny for him.

    Under the Asgardians, he’d have likely been left as Lilith’s slave as punishment for being outthought (cleverness being considered one of the highest virtues to them)… The rape issue would be considered a family affair to be settled by holmganga, more than likely.

    The celestial bureaucracy would probably have ruled Lilith at fault for resisting the advances of someone who outranked her once the protection of her own lord was withdrawn.

  42. JanieBelle says:

    Yes, I suppose the particular mythos at hand would surely make a difference.

  43. a.real.girl says:

    OK, I’m a little late to the party here, but still want to join.

    Human or not, we still react to what they’re going through as if they’re human, as it’s our defaut. From this perspective I’d agree that to an outsider it appears as though Lilith was raped, as consent given under duress and un-informed is not necessarily consent.

    Nonetheless, we know she is consenting, albeit quietly, and know she has a plan. What I’d love to know for the sake of the “trial” here, such as it is, is if we have any prior knowledge of her kink.

    If there’s discoverable information about her kink, perhaps it would be less aligned with rape. Without it, it has to be considered rape to the outside observer.

    I disagree with the notion that “yes and no” can be a solid answer to the question of if she was raped. Is there really room for considering someone a little bit raped? I don’t know that there is.

    -a

  44. JanieBelle says:

    We do have that knowledge, A.

    First, at the end of Part the Second, we catch the little smile. It’s a hint that all is not as it seems.

    Then, another hint in Part the Third. Lucifer had called her ‘kitten’. She called him ‘mouse’. She was hinting that he was the one being toyed with. He just didn’t catch it. (And neither did you, the reader, hopefully.)

    Then, in Part the Fourth, we find that in fact she had arranged all this in a double cross of Yahweh and Lucifer both, as she had the secret bet:

    “A small wager of no consequence, my Lucifer. It was long ago. In the Garden in fact, not so long after you and I first met.”

    “Tell me.”

    “It was nothing, I assure you. I simply wagered on one soul for a small dominion of my own.”

    She was not only consenting, she planned it to happen exactly the way it did.

    Do not fuck with Lilith, she’s one step ahead of you.
    :)

  45. JanieBelle says:

    hmmm.. you’re right, though.

    There’s not really any prior knowledge of her kink that would absolve him from the standpoint of his intentions.

    But that’s exactly what makes the question interesting.

  46. a.real.girl says:

    I’m not questioning her intentions, (although I admit the quote above does go toward showing us her prior knowledge and intent.)

    What I’m wondering is if it’s clear enough to an outsider that she was pulling strings all along.

    One of the inherent risks of this sort of kink is that from the outside it looks quite “not ok,” and good people with good intentions might react to what they perceive. As is the case for sexual harrassment charges, it’s about the perception, not the reality.

    So, if we’re working under the premise of a trial for Lu, we’ll have to assume it’s come to this without input from Lilith, or indeed in spite of input from Lilith. Since that’s the case, these rules of engagement say she was raped. Unless she can prove to the outside observer that her game was afoot before the initial blow, it’s hard to see clear to her consent.

    But the rich irony is that were she to do that, she’s give up some of the ground she’s won.

    Also, is there any idea that Lu might have sensed her kink? I think there’s not, and I’ve looked hard, but that would also help. I love the idea that they might have picked up each other’s scent long ago, even if they (or at least Lu) didn’t know it at a conscious level.

    And really, I heart Lu. Still more than Lilith. How hard is it to find a man with that kind of courage of his convictions? He doesn’t falter in his execution of his plan, which is his downfall, but until that moment… sigh.

    -a

  47. JanieBelle says:

    Perhaps the defense could call Yahweh to the stand, to testify as to the nature of his bet with Lilith…

    …and having had created her, he might be privy to some inkling of her kinks.

    But no, Lu had no idea of her tastes.

  48. a.real.girl says:

    Boy am I glad there’s not a creator…I shudder to think about someone being privy to the inkling of my kinks. Especially since it’s hard work finding that stuff out, and it would have been nice to know sooner.

    Back to the trial…. ok, so Lu might end up innocent, if Yahweh testified. My central problem, though, is I think Lu would probably never really be on trial here, because no one would put him there.

    Which leads me right back to the original post, regarding other submission, and the need to see it from a reader’s perspective. Outside looking in, no Yahweh testimony, I think intent is hard to see. It breaks my heart to say it, but I think a goodly number of folks would still see it as rape.

    -a

  49. JanieBelle says:

    Back to the trial…. ok, so Lu might end up innocent, if Yahweh testified. My central problem, though, is I think Lu would probably never really be on trial here, because no one would put him there.

    And why is that?

    Are you saying that you don’t think Lilith would press charges (which I think we’re all clear on), or are you saying that because he is who he is, that no one will stand in his way and he may take whatever pleases him?

  50. Beth says:

    I said I’d come back … been busy.

    I’m sticking with my original, ‘no, it wasn’t rape.’

    She played him, the entire way, doesn’t matter one whit (to me) what his intentions were, when in every moment of the game she was consenting, stringing him along, weaving her web. It doesn’t matter if we (the reader) don’t see or hear her consent: her big reveal at the end tells us everything we need to know. It becomes her word against the casual observer’s perceptions. And I’ll take her word: she’s not earned my disbelief or disrespect.

    And for what it’s worth, it didn’t ‘read’ as rape, to me, prior to me reading the end.

    But then, I’m an odd duck, in some ways.

    Speaking of fowl. JB ~ “Stroke the chicken.”?? (Your previous comment to me, way back up there).

    *laughs* hadn’t heard that one before.

  51. JanieBelle says:

    Thank you for returning to the thread Beth, to explain.

    (and I may have mixed a few metaphors with that… ;) )

  52. a.real.girl says:

    JanieBelle: both. I think Lilith wouldn’t press charges, but Lu also strikes me as exactly the kind of guy the public might not actively try to tick off.

    Beth: Good point. If Lilith is telling us she’s all good with the goings on, it that enough? I would love it if it were, for the purposes of submission to another forum, but I don’t know that it’s clear enough for the casual observer. We don’t need to value them over her, but they will.

    JanieBelle, have you decided if you’ll post?

    -a

  53. JanieBelle says:

    I actually submitted it to one of the open calls for a contest (grand prize like two grand), but then read the fine print.

    It’s not eligible because it’s already been “publicly distributed” by being posted on my blog. I sent along an apology for wasting their time and withdrew the submission.

    The fella in charge sent me a quick thank you note for the note, so it’s all good, but still.

  54. JanieBelle says:

    Here is the contest.

    The rule wasn’t quite clear as stated on that page, and so I made the inquiry along with the submission.

    It wasn’t until I re-read the limited release form that I saw the “publicly distributed” language.
    :(

  55. Beth says:

    Sorry ’bout that JB ~ {{hugs}} I hate it when things like that happen.

  56. JanieBelle says:

    Well, it’s the price of admission, I suppose.

    **hugs**

  57. Did they ever answer the question about their rape exclusion? Just curious.

  58. JanieBelle says:

    Different place, Molly, and I saw no such exclusion there.

    Kisses

  59. Rystefn says:

    “Especially since it’s hard work finding that stuff out, and it would have been nice to know sooner.”

    Isn’t finding out half the fun, really? I know it was for me.

  60. JanieBelle says:

    Oh you are so not getting away with a comment like that without sharing details…

  61. JanieBelle says:

    Oh, I thought you were suggesting you had intimate details on A.
    ;)

  62. Rystefn says:

    Now, now… You should know me well enough to know I wouldn’t go telling secrets that aren’t mine to give away.

  63. JanieBelle says:

    Like that would stop me from trying…

  64. JanieBelle says:

    So, informal poll time, just at this point:

    Guilty or Not Guilty?

  65. Rystefn says:

    You wouldn’t be you if it did.

    Guilty

  66. JanieBelle says:

    Quite.

    Not Guilty.

  67. Stephanie Z says:

    Guilty but hardly alone. Still has my sympathy.

  68. Beth says:

    Not guilty.

    *blows a kiss to JB*

  69. A Real Girl says:

    Guilty. It kills me to say it, but guilty.

    And Rystefn, I think exploring one’s kinks can be plenty of fun, but coming find out what sort of girl you are? That can be less fun. As with all things growing up, knowing your a certain type of girl and knowing that’s perfectly ok are two different things.

    -a

  70. Rystefn says:

    I dunno… I had fun finding out what kind of girl I am. ;)

    I can see, however, how it could be hard for some people in some situations. I got lucky, in that I didn’t give a shit what people thought for the most part, and when I did care, it was mostly that I wanted them to think ill of me… Well, if you call that lucky. It’s a double-edged sword, I assure you.

  71. JanieBelle says:

    It would seem, Beth, that we are failing our client here. Playing to the sympathy of the jury might not be the best strategy amongst critical thinkers who can separate within themselves that which they want to be true from the reality of the situation.

    It might be time to press harder on the legalities of the situation.

  72. Stephanie Z says:

    Janie, if you want legalities, ask me whether Lilith was raped, not whether Lucifer committed rape. That’s a much cleaner answer.

    For the record, there’s a stayed sentence to go with that guilty. He’ll get all the punishment and rehabilitation that will ever work for him exactly where he is at the end of the story.

  73. JanieBelle says:

    Steph, I am so tickled at how your mind works!

    Is it at all possible that we could find Lucifer guilty of committing rape, yet find also that his victim was never raped?

    The Supremes would be tying themselves in knots over that one, I think!

    Kisses, great big fun and tickled kisses!

  74. If we’re really trying to be legalistic and applying laws as they exist in lots of US states, then consider the importance of intent. Lucifer had the intent of committing rape. That there might have been an internal motivation on Lilith’s part to “let” him rape her doesn’t change his intent, and probably doesn’t change the fact that under the law he would be guilty of the crime. Consider the “To Catch A Predator” series – there are no children ever actually solicited for sex but that is exactly what those men are convicted of. Based on what? Intent.
    xoxo
    Molly

  75. JanieBelle says:

    But are they convicted of rape, or intent to commit rape, or soliciting?

    I honestly don’t know, as I’ve never watched the series.

  76. JanieBelle says:

    I’m thinking a lot is going to depend on the exact wording of the legal definition of rape in whichever jurisdiction the event occurred.

  77. Beth says:

    So we make this ‘real’? Lucifer becomes Luke (an average sadist), and Lilith is Lily (your basic masochist). Luke and Lily both work in corporate America, living in medium-big city Xyz.

    Luke wants Lily (and her company) and figures he needs to (or maybe just wants to) rape her in order to bring her to her knees and get her to sign the papers. Lily, meanwhile, has already set in motion her play for him: she wants his corporation … and his love, his undying devotion, to wear his collar and his brand. And she wants him to believe it’s all his idea, until the very end.

    A dangerous (or fun) game (depending on your perspective). But it still isn’t rape because Lily wanted him to do exactly what he did before he did it.

  78. Stephanie Z says:

    Janie, I’m tickled that you’re tickled. Frankly, I terrify a lot of people if I’m not careful. I say something like that and they start wondering what else I’m being tricky about. The truth is, I’m a bit boring most of the time.

  79. JanieBelle says:

    Beth,

    An interesting move. I think it will still boil down to jurisdiction and definition.

    Steph,

    Well, you can always let your hair down here, pull on the stockings and boots, unbutton the blouse a bit, and do your level best to terrify us all. I suspect the reaction you’d get around here would be somewhat… different than terror.

    More like arousal, unless I’m horribly mistaken. I hope that wouldn’t disappoint you.
    ;)

  80. Rystefn says:

    From a legal standpoint, you have to consider also the ramifications of NOT convicting. At that point “What if she was manipulating me into violence, but changed her mind after and now won’t admit it?” becomes a viable defense. If you let Lucifer go on this, despite his clear intentions, you’ve set a precedent that will essentially give every violent criminal a walk.

    Yes, I am aware that it’s kind of odd for a masochist like me to be saying this, knowing the kind of risk it lays onto the people I’m with. Yes, it does set the precedent that no matter how much I like it, even demand it, if my partner’s intent is to harm, then it’s assault anyway… but I never deceive and manipulate. Is it a miscarriage of justice for Lilith to get a walk? Most certainly it is. The law, however, is NOT about justice, no matter what anyone tries to tell you.

    The law is about maintaining order. The law is about keeping power in the hands of the people who already have it. Sometimes, the law is even about protecting the people. Where I live, intent is one of the primary factors in the law. If someone decides they want to commit suicide, and they do it by picking a fight in a bar with a bunch of gangers, and they beat him to death, they still committed murder.

  81. JanieBelle says:

    And yet that would be a job for the legislature to take up.

    The judge and jury must go by what the law says, not what they think it should say, or what consequences it might have down the road if they decide one way or the other.

    I believe that it was you who made a very similar point earlier, was it not?

  82. Diana says:

    Wow, you’re gone for a day and look what you miss! At this point I am just enjoying the bantering but I am putting in my vote.

    Guilty

  83. JanieBelle says:

    It gets a little quick around here every now and again, Diana.
    :)

  84. Rystefn says:

    Case law, Janie. Judges can and do make decisions based on what the expected future outcome will be, or what they think the law should say.

  85. JanieBelle says:

    I think they have to walk a very fine line when they do that though.

    Consider the ruling involving Miranda warnings.

    If the judge hears the case and decides the law in question clearly requires a verbatim reading of a Miranda card to an arrested suspect, and it’s clear that this wasn’t done in a particular case, he has to be very careful about not freeing the suspect in the case.

    Now, if it’s also clear that this is but one of many cases over a period of years where law enforcement has been “winging it”, is he free to keep this suspect incarcerated to avoid the future effects on those who were arrested but not properly Mirandized?

    I don’t think he is. This suspect was not properly arrested, and that is the only ruling he can make, no matter if those others go free as a consequence, and their actual guilt or innocence in their own cases is irrelevant to his ruling.

    Of course, the standard disclaimer here, I am not a lawyer, and I do not play one on the interwebs.

  86. JanieBelle says:

    (uh, this post excepted of course.)

  87. JanieBelle says:

    Alrighty then, let me add this.

    From NCState University:

    First Degree Rape (14-27.2)

    A person is guilty of rape in the first degree if the person engages in vaginal intercourse:

    1. With a victim who is a child under the age of 13 years and the defendant is at least 12 years old and is at least four years older than the victim; or
    2. With another person by force and against the will of the other person, and:

    a. Employs or displays a dangerous or deadly weapon … ; or
    b. Inflicts serious … injury …; or
    c. The person commits the offense aided or abetted by one or more other persons.

    Classification: Class B1 Felony (40 years and/or fine)

    Second Degree Rape (14-27.3)

    A person is guilty of rape in the second degree if the person engages in vaginal intercourse with another person:

    1. By force and against the will of the other person; or …

    Classification: Class C Felony (40 years and/or fine)

    Smart and Sexy Defense Attorney (me): “Lilith, did Lucifer at any time engage in vaginal intercourse with you against your will?”

    Lilith: “No.”

    Judge: “Case dismissed.”

    HA! Eat it, suckers.
    :)

  88. Rystefn says:

    Except that much of the law is about intent, If they manage to prove that he THOUGHT he was doing it against her will, Lucifer gets locked away. However, as I said before, I have no illusions that the courts would give him a walk if Lilith took the stand and told the truth. Regardless, there’s a reason the courts don’t find people innocent. In this case, he’s clearly guilty (to us) even if he’s nearly impossible to convict, which I’ve already said.

    Furthermore, if very many of the facts of what did happen came out, the prosecution would be parading out a psychologist to show how Lilith wasn’t competent to consent or that she’d been traumatized and mind-fucked (that’s a technical term) to the point that her testimony of consent now is without weight – or better yet, that her testimony now is evidence of just how evil the defendant is, and why he should be locked away.

    In short: In any moral sense that matters, he’s guilty. In a literal legal sense, he’s not guilty. In the courts, they very might find him guilty anyway for a completely different reason that the actual morality of the situation.

  89. Diana says:

    “a.real.girl
    Posted June 30, 2008 at 5:29 pm

    JanieBelle: both. I think Lilith wouldn’t press charges, but Lu also strikes me as exactly the kind of guy the public might not actively try to tick off.”

    But you have to go back to A.Real.Girl’s post about who’s pressing charges? How did they get into the courtroom in the first place? Therefore isn’t it possible that Lilith would answer Yes.

  90. JanieBelle says:

    :)

    Ready for my secret weapon?

    I have it through the grapevine that a judge who shall remain nameless, and whose jurisdiction lies within these United States, agrees with me.

    Not Guilty of the crime of rape.
    :P

  91. JanieBelle says:

    neener neener, by the way.

  92. JanieBelle says:

    Rystefn,

    I agree about intent, but aren’t there specific laws usually that address that?

    Like “intent to commit…” whatever crime?

  93. JanieBelle says:

    Diana,

    Many times law enforcement, due to the nature of their job, have to make an arrest first, and let the matter be sorted out in the courts.

    For instance, in many states, if there is even a little bit of evidence upon arrival at a domestic disturbance call, an arrest must be made. They don’t even have a lot of discretion. So the neighbor hears a ruckus, calls the police, they arrive and find a spouse bruised and bloody, the other spouse gets hauled off.

    There’s good reason for that, given that many women are battered and are too frightened to press charges. The state takes it out of their hands, and it must be sorted out first at a hearing to determine if there is enough evidence to proceed to a trial.

    So, it’s not really a given here that Lilith would be the one pressing charges.

  94. Rystefn says:

    Sometimes there are. I can only assume that would depend on the jurisdiction.

    Second, your judge didn’t have to put up with the psychologist the prosecution would love to trot out. Not saying they could necessarily get one to say those things. I’m not one, and even if I was, I haven’t had a session speaking with Lilith, but the possibility is there.

    For such a soft science, it often carries a Hell of a lot of weight in our legal system.

  95. JanieBelle says:

    Fair point, Rystefn. I’d be interested in hearing what his Honor had to say about the subject, should he return.

  96. Stephanie Z says:

    Clearly, Janie, you’re the one pressing the charges. Just as clearly, Lucifer isn’t the only one on trial. :)

    I’ve been mostly ignoring the issue of legality, even though you phrased the question that way, because I don’t think it’s important. As readers, we have access to information that we wouldn’t have as jurors.

    As readers, we also have the leisure to enjoy and explore in the story things that we couldn’t in good conscience allow ourselves to tolerate in real life. That is a service–well provided here. If anyone ever tells you you’re wasting time writing fiction, spit in their face for me. Or write a story about spitting in their face instead.

    Then you can spend some time wondering what would have happened if you’d asked these questions without letting everyone off the hook at the end of the story. How many people would have answered without having mitigating factors to fall back on?

  97. JanieBelle says:

    :)

    In a way, I’m kind of the one on trial here, as well. As in “Did I write a rape story?”

    I’m just glad that you all enjoyed the story, and this discussion of it. I feel like I’ve accomplished something, reached a goal.

    Thank you so much.

    And thank you for your kind compliments about my fiction, Steph. They mean a great deal to me.

  98. Stephanie Z says:

    Janie, did I say I was exempting you from the trial? :)

  99. JanieBelle says:

    No, I suppose you did not. :)

  100. JanieBelle says:

    So, what? Y’all are gonna just roll over and let me win cuz some judge says I’m right?

    Geez, I thought y’all had more cajones than that.
    ;)

  101. Diana says:

    I’ve got nothing, by now I think we’re just beating a dead horse.

  102. JanieBelle says:

    But it’s a fun dead horse to beat!

  103. Stephanie Z says:

    Janie, who says you won. Every time I say something, you say, “Huh. Interesting.” That is no way to conduct an argument. What am I supposed to argue with?

    Unless you want to try to convince me the answer is cut and dried…? :)

  104. Stephanie Z says:

    And now you’re going to call me Grammar Girl again because I missed a question mark, aren’t you?

  105. JanieBelle says:

    Huh. Interesting.

  106. JanieBelle says:

    Ok, here: You’re wrong, Grammar Girl.

  107. JanieBelle says:

    I dunno. I’m sure I’ll think of something.
    :)

  108. JanieBelle says:

    As readers, we have access to information that we wouldn’t have as jurors.

    But we would, the minute I got Lilith on the stand.

  109. JanieBelle says:

    But this:

    As readers, we also have the leisure to enjoy and explore in the story things that we couldn’t in good conscience allow ourselves to tolerate in real life. That is a service–well provided here.

    I appreciate. And I like the fact that some of my readers are not afraid to go there in my fiction, even though they wouldn’t in real life.

    I enjoy exploring the dark recesses and hidden fantasies that we don’t admit to in polite company.

  110. Stephanie Z says:

    Lilith would say whatever she wanted to on the stand, and she would lie well. As a juror, I’d be outclassed. The only person she’s going to tell the truth to is the one who can’t do anything with it but appreciate it wryly.

  111. JanieBelle says:

    I think she’d be smug enough to tell the truth, the whole truth, and all the dirty details of the truth, myself.

    Why would she lie? She got what she wanted so desperately.

  112. Stephanie Z says:

    And I enjoy taking the deep darks that make us feel bad about ourselves and saying them out loud. Once the shock clears, the world is a little lighter.

    Your turn.

  113. Stephanie Z says:

    I think telling the whole truth might devalue what she won just a little. “Yes. I defeated Lucifer,” gives away none of the tricks and leaves the awe in place.

  114. JanieBelle says:

    I enjoy prodding people and seducing them to do the things they’d always wanted to. I like to think of it as setting them free from themselves and their past.

    I enjoy arousing them, making them embarrassingly wet and hard, in public, when they think of me. I love to hear them tell me how they flushed at the thought of me.

  115. JanieBelle says:

    Now that is a good point, something I hadn’t considered.

    She might be smarter than I am…

  116. Stephanie Z says:

    Did I mention being outclassed? :)

  117. JanieBelle says:

    C’mon Steff, say it. Right here, publicly in front of the world.

    Say the words. :)

  118. Stephanie Z says:

    I don’t know, Janie. Leaving you with a hollow victory seems somehow appropriate to the story.

  119. JanieBelle says:

    Steff, there are no judgments here. I’m a girl, and I’m fictional. So what?

    Do you blush when you think of me, of what you’d do were I there with you?

  120. Stephanie Z says:

    Laugh mostly, knowing how you’d pout. I would argue with you some more, then pat you on your head and look serene while you called me names. There’s nothing under that stone, dear.

  121. JanieBelle says:

    I think you underestimate me, Steff.

  122. Stephanie Z says:

    If that makes you feel better…. :)

  123. Stephanie Z says:

    (And I soooo know I’m not getting the last word on this one.)

  124. Rystefn says:

    Roll over? My last point remains uncontested. Two points, in fact. Hell three, if you count what I said entirely outside the domains of the trial concept. Actually, I look back, and it looks pretty clear to that I argued you into the ground, and rather than admit defeat, you just kind of wandered off.

  125. Stephanie Z says:

    Sorry, Rystefn. I seem to have broken Janie. Or maybe just issued a challenge she can’t put down.

  126. a.real.girl says:

    Rystefn & Steph: I’m positive Janie’s not broken, and furthermore, is winning. And I may or may not be talking about the trial or it’s outcome.

    Also, I’m pretty clear she’s won over me too.

    But Rystefn- your sweetness towards me, here and over there, are pretty winning too. I wish you had won the divining contest. Perhaps we should have a contest of our own…

  127. JanieBelle says:

    sorry.

    I was writing a post and talking to y’all when Kaylaface called to say that a boy down the street, a friend of The Boy‘s boy, needed help.

    His house was on fire.

    He was the only one home, and he’s Ok, the fire departments are there and are putting it out, but the house is toast.

  128. JanieBelle says:

    Just got word, though.

    Excellent insurance. That’s teh awesome.

  129. Stephanie Z says:

    A, why would you ever want to limit yourself to talking about just one thing at a time?

    And yes, we’re just haggling over the price.

  130. JanieBelle says:

    I do not come cheap, Steph.

    I am, however, a bargain at any price.

    Just so y’know.

  131. JanieBelle says:

    Fire, at The Boy‘s blog, for details.

  132. Stephanie Z says:

    Of course you are. This isn’t about what you’re worth, just what I’ll pay. Or not.

  133. JanieBelle says:

    I don’t take cash, debit cards, paypal, Amex, Discover, Visa, or even MasterCard.

    I am however, priceless.

  134. Stephanie Z says:

    Just hearts, minds, souls and secrets for Janie. Plus one or two more earthy offerings.

  135. JanieBelle says:

    You are certainly in the right ballbark, dear Steff.

  136. Stephanie Z says:

    More emphasis on the earthy offerings? :)

  137. JanieBelle says:

    Those and the secrets, really.
    :)

  138. Rystefn says:

    A, you make a compelling point. I am intrigued by your ideas and wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

  139. Stephanie Z says:

    Janie, I’m rather poor in secrets. You have my snark, my giggles, my insight, my attention and my admiration, those things that are in my power to give. I hope they are not too pale a substitute.

  140. JanieBelle says:

    Some days, a girl has to be smart enough to take what she can get.
    ;)

    Kisses

  141. Rystefn says:

    And some days, you pretend that you’re settling when you got exactly what you wanted the whole time. :P

  142. Stephanie Z says:

    And what she already knew she had.

  143. JanieBelle says:

    Ya just never know what’s really going on in JanieBelle’s head. There are layers upon layers…

  144. Stephanie Z says:

    And rather than try to sort through that right now, I’ll point out that I’m not the only person whose arguments you haven’t fully addressed here. Ahem.

  145. JanieBelle says:

    Ok, concisely, lay them out.

    I’m a busy girl, y’know. The blogosphere is in need of titillation, and I was hoping y’all would do most of the work here.
    :)

  146. Rystefn says:

    So you can merrily dance around them again, and then not send me a video of it again? I’m a busy man, Janie.

  147. JanieBelle says:

    Rats! You have found out my secret evil master plan!

  148. Rystefn says:

    Yeah, I’m a clever monkey.

  149. JanieBelle says:

    I think the monkey needs spanked.

    Just don’t high hat him.
    ;)

    Kisses

  150. Rystefn says:

    High-hat? I’m offended you would even think of that. :P

  151. JanieBelle says:

    You ignored the monkey spanking comment though, Rystefn. Why is that?

  152. Rystefn says:

    Because we both know I don’t deserve it.

  153. JanieBelle says:

    Well then I suggest you start doing something to deserve it…

  154. Rystefn says:

    I try. The downside to egocentricism is that you hold yourself responsible for everything that happens around you, and then megalomania makes you hold yourself to a higher standard of achievement than others…

    Well, I suppose it could lead one to a persecution complex and chronic not-my-fault-ism, but then it’s just delusions of grandeur, isn’t it?

  155. JanieBelle says:

    Would you just put that aside and do it for me?

  156. JanieBelle says:

    While Rystefn is otherwise occupied, we’ll all take a break for station identification here, and let you know that tomorrow marks two years since I met Kate.

    This is channel UDoJ on WordPress, seducing the masses from Jacksonville, North Carolina.

  157. JanieBelle says:

    I thought you were supposed to be off spanking your monkey.
    :lol:

  158. Rystefn says:

    No thank you. I’m not exactly in the mood just now.

  159. JanieBelle says:

    Well, I thought I’d try to help.

  160. JanieBelle says:

    Rystefn,

    You’ve totally derailed this thread from Lucifer to masturbation. That was very unkind of you.
    :lol:

  161. Rystefn says:

    Don’t try to give me credit for that. You brought up spanking the monkey, and I avoided the subject, then you brought it up again. That was entirely you.

  162. JanieBelle says:

    Sometimes my commenters are too smart for my own damned good.

  163. Rystefn says:

    I can’t turn it off.

  164. JanieBelle says:

    oh but you so can turn on…
    ;)

  165. Rystefn says:

    I can’t turn that off, either. ;)

  166. JanieBelle says:

    It’s a curse, I know.

  167. Rystefn says:

    It can be, at times… but given the alternative, I think I’d rather have it this way. I mean, can you imagine being a walking turn-off? *shakes head*

  168. JanieBelle says:

    Perish the thought! That would make me a Creationist!

  169. Rystefn says:

    Ouch… That’s harsh.

  170. Stephanie Z says:

    Yes, Janie, comparing people to creationists is just mean.

    [back to my story]

  171. JanieBelle says:

    Well can either of you think of a better example of “a walking turn-off”?

    I’m sorry, but I don’t care what you look like. Brain-dead is just not sexy.

  172. Stephanie Z says:

    Personally, I’d rather be a shambling zombie, dripping gore. But maybe I just have zombies on the brain.

  173. Rystefn says:

    If the only brand of walking turn-off you can think of is a creationist, you haven’t been online very long… That you’ve been online too long and spent more time on 4-chan than is good for you.

  174. JanieBelle says:

    At least zombies eat brains. It’s like they’re at least trying to get smarter. I can kind of respect that on some level.

  175. JanieBelle says:

    Well Rystefn, you have to cut me a little slack on that score. I was only born (created?) two years ago.
    :)

  176. Stephanie Z says:

    Or they’re trying to make everyone else dumber. Hmm…maybe they are creationists after all.

  177. JanieBelle says:

    Well, there is that. I didn’t claim they were perfect, just a step up from creationists.

  178. JanieBelle says:

    Well, it’s not that big a deal to be one step up from a creationist, after all.

  179. Rystefn says:

    Would be a Hell of an accomplishment to be a step down…

  180. Stephanie Z says:

    I don’t know. Only one step up is kind of hard to attain. It’s way too easy to overshoot.

  181. JanieBelle says:

    How many steps up is Lucifer? (My Lucifer, not the totally unbelievable version)

  182. Rystefn says:

    Isn’t your version a creationist?

  183. Stephanie Z says:

    Can’t say. I know him too well now. No perspective.

  184. JanieBelle says:

    Hell no, and I’m kind of insulted now!

    My Lucifer is way to smart …oh wait. Yeah, I guess he is.

  185. Rystefn says:

    I rest my case

  186. JanieBelle says:

    Of course, in his universe, creationism is actually accurate, so that’s kind of an unfair characterization…

  187. Stephanie Z says:

    Uh, Janie, no more fires please.

  188. Rystefn says:

    Seconded. House-fires are bad. (That’s why I don’t do bondage, by the way. It’s a fire-hazard)

  189. Stephanie Z says:

    OK, maybe it’s just past my bedtime, but I am not making that connection.

  190. Rystefn says:

    If you’re in a burning building, the number one factor in your chances of survival is how quickly you get out.

  191. Stephanie Z says:

    Ah. Hazard in a fire. I was trying to figure out how you were going to accidentally set the fire. Better now. :)

  192. Rystefn says:

    Hey, any time I have sex, it’s so hot you risk spontaneous combustion. ;)

  193. Stephanie Z says:

    Well, sure. I was just trying to figure out what was extra special about the bondage.

  194. Rystefn says:

    Yeah, I really have nothing on that front. I mean, if that’s your thing, more power to you. Pretty hypocrite I’d be to say something about someone else’s brand of kink, but for me, Any restraint I can’t instantly remove in an emergency, I won’t have any part of.

  195. JanieBelle says:

    Well, sure. I was just trying to figure out what was extra special about the bondage.

    That’s because you’ve never been bound by me, sweet Steph.
    ;)

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